Mystery/Thriller Panel

Moderator: Kerry Blair
Panelists:
JoAnn Arnold, Josi S. Kilpack (Josi’s blog), Julie Coulter Bellon, Liz Adair and Stephanie Black (she blogs V Formation; Stephanie, Kerry and Julie all blog at Six LDS Writers and a Frog.)

Our esteemed panelists also have expertise in romance, historical, nonfiction. Plus, I’ve gotten to talk to Kerry, Julie and Stephanie, and they’re all really nice, wonderful people!

Note: This was one of the first sessions after many of the attendees received their critiqued contest entries back from the conference first chapter contest, so many of the questions here focus on that.

“My book isn’t a thriller”—It’s about a girl who feels guilty for initiating her mother’s death. On my chapter critiques, some loved the cliffhanger—not knowing if she’d actually killed her mom—others couldn’t connect to her because they didn’t know that—How soon do you reveal your major plot points?

• Josi—Are the judges divided? (Yes.) Is the book finished? (No.) Keep writing it and see if your attitude changes. First chapters are notorious for being rewritten.
• Julie—It is important to connect with your readers and hook them on the first chapter. Make sure your characters can connect with your reader.

I’m writing a romantic suspense novel—my chapter critiques indicate there are some lulls in the action, and I’m having a hard time because the “lulls” are the romances—don’t want a bomb to go off every chapter. How do you even that out, creating tension with romance and suspense?

• Julie—(Dubbed the romantic suspense expert) That’s hard for her because she loves the action—it’s hard to find a balance so your reader can catch their breath for just a second. Don’t leave your characters just sitting around mooning at each other. On the other hand, it’s tricky to build a relationship while the bombs are going off.
• Liz—Even the romance needs to forward the plot. Don’t have romance just for romance’s sake.
• JoAnn—I don’t write romance thrillers, but I write thrillers with a little romance—the romance gives you a break, but you don’t take away from the thriller. Let it have its place in the book.

I have a romance thriller submission for first chapter contest. Some reviewers loved the fact that it was a thriller. One outlier loved that it was a romance, but they were ticked off they didn’t know all the answers. How do you indicate genre/hook in first chapter?

• Stephanie—Look for the genre you want to place it. In first chapter, lean more on how you see this being. Mingle romance and danger and choose how you’ll market this.
• Josi—Rmember when your book is being sold, it’s going to have a cover, back copy cover, etc. First chapter has to have movement, action, something happening. You have to set up expectations and give readers what they think they’re getting.

When you’re getting different opinions from reviewers?

• Liz—complete the book, be true to the book, and then take it into account. What’s important is that they want to read on after the first chapter.
• Josi—She’s going to disagree. You know your story and style and direction best, but be open minded. Weigh out the feedback to try to understand it. Don’t try to meet all their expectations, but give each a fair shake. You could learn something from that feedback. Even if they don’t agree, don’t discount them—or your opportunity to learn from them.
• Kerry—Julie just went through a crazy crit experience—
• Julie—As someone who looked over all those evaluations, I thought they were an incredibly valuable resource. The judges were editors, authors and other professionals. The feedback is amazing. I hope you take it in the spirit it was given. Kerry’s talking about my manuscript I submitted to Covenant. I got my reader comments and some of them, I was like “Did they even read the book?” [I wonder that a lot on those off-the-wall crits!] One said there was too much LDS in the book, another said not enough. I asked my editor what to do, and we went through it together. You have to take into consideration where your book is going, what you want to portray and project.
• Stephanie—Ultimately, evaluate the feedback and step back from it a little bit. I have to brace myself when I read evaluations. You do get widely varied responses—one says the characters are wonderful, one says they’re cardboard. Sometimes I’ve found the feedback that hurts the most can help the most too. Ex: someone went on and on about how Stephanie was wordy, so she went back and looked at the scene this person used as an example and she was able to cut 800 words from the scene without changing anything.

If you think of your fave book or the most well-received book you’ve done—did you come up with a hook and write a story to it, or did you write the story and come up with the hook?

• JoAnn—I write from the imagination. My hook may be somewhere else at the time and I have to go back and find it. I start with an idea and then I introduce my characters, and I ask them where they want to go. My story make take a whole different path than what I’d planned. Don’t ever force it or make it stick—this is how it’s got to be no matter what? How much can you put in a first chapter? You have to be careful. Let your story take its path and you may find your hook later.
• Liz—My first few books that I wrote, I didn’t know that I had to have a hook. I had one but I didn’t know I was putting it in—there was no decision.
• Josi—Same. In my most recent book, Lemon Tart, it came about because of a writing contest. Jeff Savage—Murder mystery with food and the hook has to be a death happening offstage. Took second in contest, but it worked out okay. (Kerry adds that Lemon Tart has been the #1 best seller on DB list for weeks now).
• Stephanie—ideas come in different ways. My first book came from a short story she started in high school. She highly recommends Jack Bickham (same as Josi—3The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes, and Scene & Structure) Learn how to shape a compelling story—chapter structure, scene goals, what characters want. Each chapter should have an end hook. With my last couple, I just brainstormed about characters and their goals and their obstacles and the story grows out of that conflict.
• Julie—I don’t know if you can focus so much on a hook, though. I think you just have to have a well-written beginning. In the editing process, things get changed around—the beginning you start with might not be the one you get published.

Define the difference between mystery and thriller. Are they shelved together?

• Josi—
  • Mystery: driven by curiosity, want to know what happens next. Death (may be less frequently that serious if it’s YA) OR big crime takes place off stage, the rest of the book is figuring out whodunnit. One point of view. Reader knows about as much as the main character does.
  • Suspense: whatever the crime/hook/conflict is happens onscene. Typically the reader knows a little more than the main character, so we know what kind of danger they’re facing. May get POV from bad guys. Motivated to keep reading by fear, anxiety, worry.
  • Thriller: Suspense novel that if it were a movie, it would be big budget—higher stakes: the world. The FBI infiltrated by terrorists, big ramifications. Exploding cars, buildings falling, etc. More intense action.

This was my question! What kind of mysteries are you selling right now or have you sold recently (romance, cozies, police procedurals, etc.)?

• Josi—culinary cozy, includes recipes
  Sidebar—what’s a cozy?
  • Josi—cozy: cats and food, LOL. Basically, means it happens in one place, people in a little house, amateur sleuth, small cast, small-scale ramifications, driven by curiosity, not a lot of thrills, not keep you up—Murder She Wrote)
  • Stephanie—also, no intense violence, warm and fuzzies.
• Stephanie—Recently sold contemporary suspense comparable to Mary Higgins Clark. Female protagonist trying to do the right thing
• Julie—”romantic thriller.” About French agent in Paris who has found out a plot to poison water going to troops in Iraq.
• Liz—romance “intrigue.” Heavy on romantic content, but puzzle/mystery to solve, a little bit of danger
• JoAnn—Patriotic mystery a year ago—fascinated with Constitution and Declaration [I was an American Heritage TA; don’t even get me started on this topic!]. Way back when they had watchers to protect the constitution. Her story, today is these people are watching still.

Back to the very first question: Some readers thought a secondary character, an FBI agent, was falling in love with the main character in first chapter, but it wasn’t something she intended. What happens if a subplot appears?

• JoAnn—When she was writing Journey of the Promise, the main character started as a grandma, but by chapter 3, she wanted to be 21. The grandmotherly subplots went away, but because she changed the main character, other characters began to approach her
• Stephanie—My outlines are really broad. I have to know basic idea of story direction, but I don’t know the specifics of the story until I write it. My first drafts are a hideous mess because I change my mind mid-book. I make myself notes at the top of my MS on things I need to change. By the end, I know what I want the story to be and I do a lot of rewriting. Some of my best ideas come as I’m writing. These connections occur to you, etc. With your FBI guy, could this add some complications to the story? Or tweak chapter one 1—could this make my story better? Can I use this?
• Julie—I’d definitely look at that to see if it adds another layer.
• Kerry—Notes that Liz had first detective series, the Spider Latham series, on LDS market. How’d you intro the series?
• Liz—You get to know the characters so well, I have more books blocked out for him, but Deseret Book isn’t interested. Plots spring to mind all over the place.

In this genre, do the ideas come from your imagination, the news, current events (national, murders)?

• Liz—Both. You just have to start with a body, then you have to figure out how it got there and who done it.
• JoAnn—comes somewhere inside of me, in my imagination. I think because I was on the stage a lot growing up, I could see the person that would be that character and I would become that person while I’m writing.

Is it easier to have a female protagonist or male in LDS market?

• Josi—depends on specific genre. Cozy or basic mystery, depends on the book—in the LDS market, women buy mysteries. Male readers read a smaller genre pool than women do—fewer genres. Motivated by action, fast paced. Plenty of women readers for that, too. Go with what works best with your story. Her audience is women and they typically prefer women protags. Women are more likely to read male protags than vice versa (generalization).

Do you have a background in English and does that help?

• Julie—I have an English teaching degree, but that doesn’t really make a difference. It’s how well you can write. Going back to Gale’s question—I get ideas everywhere. As a journalism professor, I read them everywhere.
• Liz—I went in to Deseret Book hoping they’d want another Spider Latham. This was just as [Mark Hacking] happened, and they’d just found that he’d killed his wife. Editor said “You don’t know how many letters I get from women who marry someone they think is wonderful and he turns out to be just not, not the man they thought they married. I want you to write a book with that underlying theme.” Mr. Cory Harper—what kind of a man did she marry?
• JoAnn—Wrote something with similar themes, had women call her to say that happened to them. Helps women understand they’re not alone.
• Kerry—what’s your background?
• JoAnn—stage, community theater, pretending. Artist—paint stories. High school grad. My husband is an English major, but I try to ignore him as much as possible. Came to writing through ghostwriting.
• Liz—yes, I was an English major, but I didn’t learn how to write until I joined American Night Writers.
• Josi—Nope, I’m completely uneducated. Salt Lake county public library system.
• Stephanie—I majored in History, but I’ve forgotten everything I’ve learned. I think it comes down to learning to write fiction. There’s a difference between knowing the ins and outs of commas and knowing the structure and techniques of fiction. Editors and agents couldn’t care less. All they want to know is can ou write a good book
• Josi—I wish I had a degree in English. I do think editors like to see that. They like to see they have that credential. I don’t have a college degree, and people with these do know things about the English language that I don’t. Learn about it so you can do a better job so you’re not learning as you go. But most of us are past college age. It’s okay, you can write a novel without an English degree.

Last question—Kerry: One minute each: tell the most important thing about writing:

• JoAnn—Never quit, never give up, believe in yourself.
• Liz—Write, write, write, write, write. And then rewrite. Less is more

Josi—Read a lot, keep learning, keep an open mind. there’s always something new to learn. Watch the markets, see what people are reading, stay on top of those things so you’re constantly growing. It was such a thrill for the chapter contest to see how many people that won this have been coming to this conference for years—these people are learning and applying it and improving and doing it.

• Stephanie—Jack Bichkam? “I don’t know any writers who have failed, but I know many who have quit.” If you love it, don’t quit. Don’t edit yourself to death in your first draft. Let it happen. Give yourself permission to write a cruddy first draft. Don’t polish a chapter obsessively before going on. Get the story down and don’t be afraid of rewriting—polish it later. Don’t edit yoruself into oblivion. Study the technique. Read great books out there—read, study, practice, have fun, enjoy what you’re doing. Have fun!
• Julie—Be willing to work hard. A lot of people think you can be a writer just because they put pen to paper. Be open to changes and suggestions. Be willing to self-edit and rewrite and put in the time.

Kerry—W. Somerset Maugham said, “There are three rules for writing a novel: unfortunately, nobody knows what they are.”

About the conference: LDStorymakers is a writing contest geared to LDS writers. The conference covers both the niche, regional publishers that cater to the LDS market as well as national publishers.